the natural chicken: meat hybrids and laying

Sunday, August 14, 2011

meat hybrids and laying

We're at the crucial stage now, and I'm finding it a struggle. Not as much of a struggle as the birds are, but here goes...

The meat hybrid pullets are now at 20 weeks of age. Apart from the one with major leg trouble a few weeks ago these birds have all stayed active and mobile. I'm letting them out once every couple of days under supervision; I'd do it daily only the goshawks are very good at noticing. So far, so good.

The combs have all reddened and the girls have been squatting for some time. Unfortunately a week ago the first two eggs that appeared were soft shelled. Even more ominously no eggs appeared after that for several days. And then yesterday egg material was expelled freely.

Not good.

The trick at the moment is balancing the birds' high energy needs (so much muscle needs a lot of feeding) without adding to fat in the cavity, which is going to cause problems with laying. They mustn't get fatter but they must get enough excess protein and energy to produce eggs. However with shells not being developed properly there's a third element: getting the mineral absorption right.

I believe this isn't a supply issue as the birds are given 3.5% shell grit in the feed, and there is also an ad lib hopper in each pen. Phosphorus in excess amounts compared to calcium can cause soft shelled egg laying, and it's true that milk has an improper ratio, but I'm only giving kefir once a day at about a cupful per 10 birds. Perhaps the skim powdered milk is higher in phosphorus than even straight milk, but even so it shouldn't cause this effect at the amounts I'm feeding; not when the layers are doing well with good hard shells on the same diet. It's not a vitamin D issue (D is required for the absorption of calcium) as their pen gets sufficient sunlight. I'm left with either a virus like EDS (Egg Drop Syndrome), which doesn't make complete sense given that they've come directly from a hatchery and haven't contacted many other birds; and gut issues affecting absorption.

What to do next?

First thing will be to slightly reduce protein so the laying stops for a short time (a week or two should help). That gives them a breather, though some may keep laying internally, which will be a bad thing in every way. EDS is improved by a break from laying, typically during a moult. Sometimes I feel a break can give the shell system time to catch up to ovulation as well.

Secondly I'll worm them. I haven't done so yet because they haven't shown signs of needing it (no diarrhoea, no weight loss), but they will almost certainly carry parasites, and these birds would very definitely have been bred without parasite resistance in mind. They might well have a few too many worms that are inhibiting calcium absorption by damaging the intestines. The layers of course aren't showing these problems, but whereas layers are bred to last 18 months before starting to fail (in the commercial setting) meat hybrids have only been bred to last 8-10 weeks. For this reason I feel their immune systems are likely to be massively more under par than those of their comparatively long-lived cousins.

Lastly on the thin-egg front I'll switch to commercial pellets (layer feed) for a while. This can be useful to find out if the mix I've been giving them isn't ideal. Actually they've been on half commercial mix for a while, given the problems I've had post-lupins (trying to source high protein feedstuffs) so this isn't a major change. And as I said the layers are doing quite well on the same feed. But it's worth a shot in case I've missed something.

So that's the current picture... A balancing act in the extreme! I hope I can sort out the laying as they really are friendly handsome birds. They're too huge for their own good, but they're inquisitive and quite gentle. They seem to know that their huge size puts them ahead of other birds when it comes to shaping up for a tussle. They're just a neat no-drama creature that's unfortunately been bred too far down a particular line.

3 comments:

Unknown said...: I hope that you can work out what the problem is for them. They sound like a lovely type of bird as you described their temperament.; August 14, 2011 at 6:00 PM
Lela said...: Keep in mind your dealing with birds who have been breed for one pourpose, and you are asking them to do another. It can be done but there ir a reason most people don't do it.; August 14, 2011 at 6:14 PM
Erica Bandanna said...: Yes Lela, that's an important point. There'll be no surprises if they don't survive a season. But still, I feel it's worth an attempt. They would only have ended up in a pot elsewhere, and I don't feel they're uncomfortable or unhappy right now. In fact they're ranging outside, and seem to be enjoying themselves immensely. If EYP develops it will be another story and I won't let that go on. Best wishes -- Erica. :-); August 14, 2011 at 8:01 PM

Home-mixed feed recipes

Just thought I'd put up an abbreviated version of one of my recent posts up as a permanent reference. The recipes in it are close to what I do.

In Modern Poultry Husbandry by Leonard Robinson, published in 1948 in London by Crosby, Lockwood and Son, Robinson includes many recipes for confined and ranged birds. Unlike some earlier books these recipes were actually tested during feed trials.

What makes these recipes so useful now is that they were formulated after nutrition science had started to take off, but before the feed industry had perfected using cheap byproduct meals 'fixed up' with the addition of synthetic vitamins and medications.

Of skimmed milk, he says: 'Where skimmed milk is readily obtainable it should be given to the chicks to drink ad lib. In that event no other protein concentrate is necessary.' (My emphasis, pages 308-309.) Modern chicken forum experts often claim that 'chickens are lactose intolerant'. However this may perhaps hold true only where pasteurised, homogenised milks are concerned.

The first recipe is Robinson's chick mash (page 318). He's written it all in pounds (lbs) and pints, but it should be fairly easy to turn these into percentages.

20 lb Bran
30 lb fine middlings (wheat milling byproducts: whatever's scraped up after milling)
24 lb maize (corn) meal
10 lb ground oats
6 lb skim or buttermilk (presumably dried)
5 lb meat or fish meal
5 lb yeast
half lb salt
2 lb limestone flour
1 pint cod liver oil.

Now some personal comments: the first being that if you make up the skim milk then sour it, you can omit (in my view) the yeast.

Secondly, as Robinson notes, if the birds have access to grass and sunlight, you can omit the cod liver oil. Most types of leafy greens will be just as useful as grass here.

You can also replace 5% of the bran with alfalfa (lucerne) meal; indeed I would do this in preference to using just bran.

I would also add some ground sunflower seed (say 4%) in replacement of some of the mix, but that's just my own preference. Robinson is quite clear that the above recipe will work.

Now his layer mash (page 320). As with the chick recipe above I would sour the milk as kefir so I could delete yeast (which is very expensive), and add ground or whole sunflower seeds. Robinson makes it clear that the recipe below presumes access to fresh grass and sunlight, and ad lib shell grit.

20 lb bran
40 lb middlings
20 lb maize (corn) meal
10 lb ground oats
10 lb meat-and-bone or fish meal
half lb salt

Easy, huh? Middlings by the way are perhaps hard to find unless you live near a mill. Far better than either middlings or bran would be to freshly grind whole wheat and include it in the mix at the same percentage of both combined. Or you could do as I do, and swap 'middlings' for the easier-to-obtain pollard when birds are young, adding sprouted wheat as the birds become able to tolerate larger particle size. I believe sprouting is the best way to retain (and indeed enhance) wheat's vitamins.

If there is no access to grass, then you'll need to add leafy greens in some form, and if sunlight is hiding for half the year you'll have to add cod liver oil. But as I see it, these are fairly simple recipes.

One last recipe from the book (page 323): the war diet for chicks. It's simple as hell, though it's advised to peel potatoes first. I've never tried this diet, so I'm not saying it's ideal, but it's worth jotting down as backup.

80 lb potatoes (cooked, obviously)
20 lb middlings
3 lb white fish meal (presumably any fish meal would do)
2 lb dried yeast
0.4 lb cod liver oil
half lb chalk (Warning: in those days, chalk was calcium carbonate; these days it's something else...).

Again, I think you could replace the dried yeast with an equivalent amount of dried skim milk, then just before mixing you would sour the milk (for B vitamins) and use it as the only liquid in the mash. Of course you'd ignore 'chalk' and use equivalent calcium carbonate powder or crushed shell.

I would also suggest adding seaweed meal to all these mixes. The high mineral content of seaweed, while in some ways unbalanced (e.g. massive amounts of iodine in some seaweeds) should help offset some of the soil mineral depletion that's gone on since these feeding trials were done.

cold brooding caveats...

A few warnings... Please also see 'Making adjustments to a cold brooder' underneath the how-to, as it adds important information about adjusting the brooder as chicks grow.

1. Slow feathering breeds will ALWAYS require a longer period to feather up than fast feathering birds. My experiences relate mostly to fast featherers like leghorns.
2. You can't cold brood low numbers of chicks in cool weather as they don't have enough combined body warmth. Fifteen is the minimum number of chicks to cold brood if the weather might be cool; 50 chicks is better!
3. In hot weather chicks trapped in a cold brooder 'igloo' may overheat. Keep an eye on the daytime weather gauge whenever chicks are shut into the 'igloo'.
4. Chicks still need to be started on a lamp for at least 2 days after hatch. This gives them time to fluff up and learn to eat and drink.
5. Cold brooded chicks need to be shut in the 'igloo' and only let out to feed and drink about 6 times daily until they learn where to go when cold. This can take a week or longer.
6. The 'igloo' section needs to be just the right size for the number of chicks. If you build the mesh circlet just large enough for the maximum number of chicks you'll be raising, and with enough head height to suit 3 week old chicks, then you'll need some way of reducing the 'igloo' size in the early days of brooding. Please see the note 'Making adjustments to a cold brooder' below...
8. Always make sure hay is stuffed loosely around the nest area so the box remains ventilated.

Making a cold brooder: 2.

Make an 'igloo' of mesh (plastic is good), and if you need to stiffen the edges, you can attach it to a circle of fencing wire or similar. Cut a door the same size as the one in the box. You also need to give your mesh circlet a roof of mesh (held together here with snipped cable ties). Important note: if you want to use your cold brooder with a lamp at times, you need to make the roof of the 'igloo' out of metal mesh. Thus you can rest a low wattage lamp directly on top of the igloo for use during the daytime, on cold days. I do this with an infra red lamp in the early days so the young chicks get the hang of where to go when cold. Another important note! The size of this inner 'igloo' part of the brooder needs to be right for the number of chicks (cosy and snug) while still allowing adequate room between 'igloo' and wooden box to stuff enough insulating material. I made my mesh circlet the right size for 30-40 chicks, but in practice I usually end up brooding 15-20. For this reason I have to reduce the 'igloo' size to start with, then increase the area inside as chicks grow (I do this with extra litter: see 'Making adjustments to a cold brooder' below). However if you're brooding the maximum number of day-olds in your 'igloo', you'll need to make a couple of larger replacement 'igloos' and make sure when attaching the mesh circlet to your wooden box that the clips are removable.

Making a cold brooder: 3.

Here is the mesh circle (which I call the 'igloo' part) attached to the wooden box-frame at the doorway. Note: I haven't shown the vent holes, but you definitely need them. Drill 4 holes per side (except the side with a door, which only needs 2) near the top of each box side, about 1.5cm diameter per hole. This cold brooder is basically ready for use (once the holes are drilled). All you have to do is stuff hay or pine shavings loosely around the outside of the mesh 'igloo', and add some inside the igloo as a floor. The unit is meant to be used in a rat proof area, or you can make a heavy duty wire roof if you want to (and a wire-roofed run attached to the front).

Making a cold brooder: 5.

The last two components in cold brooding are a piece of material draped over the top of the wooden box to keep the heat in, and an attached run.

Firstly for the material: my old book suggests a hessian sack. As it's hard to find hessian sacks these days, I use a doubled-over old, ratty bath towel, or only a single layer if the bath towel is still fairly thick. (Don't tell my husband where our towels disappear to.)

The drape is absolutely vital; without it chicks will chill and die.

If the drape is too heavy, it won't breathe. Actually the best drape, I've found, is a purpose-knitted woolen blanket the right size for the box. You may have other suitable materials. Don't drape over the vent holes in the box sides if you can help it, and make sure no predator can get into the brooder shed to pull the drape off during the night, or chicks will chill (I've had that happen, though luckily I checked the chicks in time).

Now for the run: I use a 1m long wood-sided hutch, about 20cm high, and built at the *same width* as the brooder box so chicks can't miss the all-important igloo doorway when looking to get warm. All feed and water containers are kept out here in the run.

Making a cold brooder: 6: How to use the brooder.

You can cold brood from about day 2, and I've done this successfully in temperatures down to 3C, but there's a definite art to it!

Newly hatched chicks don't know that the igloo is their lifeline. Furthermore, their first couple of days under a lamp teaches them that light and heat go together. This is dangerous when cold brooding as the opposite is true: darkness and warmth are what you want chicks to associate. Thus every time you combine the cold brooder with a lamp, you make it harder for chicks to learn to go into the igloo when the lamp is removed.

Sunlight (which you want for chicks to manufacture vitamin D) can also complicate the issue. It doesn't take long for chicks to associate sunlight with warmth, and this can make them huddle at the wrong end of the run, away from the igloo. Once the sun goes behind a cloud, these chicks can chill.

For these reasons it may be best to use this brooder away from any direct light, and focus on training chicks to use the igloo.

For the first week or so, this means keeping young chicks locked into the igloo and letting them out for 20 minutes six times a day to eat and drink, then laboriously putting them all back inside and shutting them in. It's time-consuming, and it's probably the reason why cold brooding isn't so popular these days, but it does work: chicks brooded this way, without direct sunlight to complicate things, do learn to use the chick igloo in about a week, after which they're virtually self-maintaining (except for food, water and hygiene, of course). Even so, you need to remain watchful once the chicks seem to have learned where to go, as a couple of hot days when the brooder run is nice and warm can interrupt their education (making them think outside is the place to be). This is why I say 'there's an art to it'.

Of course, another way to use the cold brooder if you're busy is to apply a low wattage globe during the day, and only cold brood at night. The cold brooder is still useful because it cuts down massively on the wattage globe used (and also there's no lamp at night).

However bear in mind that using a light (whether infra red or incandescent) tends to make it harder for the chicks to associate going into a dark 'igloo' with getting warm.

Making adjustments to a cold brooder

It's vital to increase igloo size as chicks grow. However if you've made the unit above, that's had to do.

The solution is to make the inner mesh circlet removable, and replace it with another bigger one as the chicks require more room, also gradually removing insulating material between nest and box.

Another way to do this (if you've made the igloo big enough to suit all your chicks at the age at which they'll stop needing it) is to start with the igloo itself stuffed with extra hay and floor litter. As chicks grow, you gradually remove this extra bulk.

However in practice it's hard to stop the floor litter and extra hay being scratched out. Since it's tedious to stuff it back in the igloo every night when you put chicks away (and they can also dislodge it during the night), it's best to add a small extra offcut of igloo mesh that will help press and hold the litter against the inner igloo walls. Tether this to the igloo mesh using twist-ties, making sure any stray ends of wire poke *out* of the igloo, not in! This will keep the hay against the walls and you can simply remove the offcut and the extra hay when chicks are bigger.

In the early days of brooding, I also raise the floor with padded foam (not styrofoam) and put litter on top to make sure chicks are snug against the ceiling at night.

Close-up of the nesting area.

You can see I'm currently using a lamp, as these chicks have been a bit slow to learn (most other chicks I've brooded learn where to snuggle much more quickly). You'll notice I've stuck a little spare hay on the outside of the nest area roof for extra insulation, as today was chilly. At night I'll still turn the lamp off and lay a towel or sack on top of the nest area, allowing the sides to breathe. If you look closely you can see a few holes drilled in the foam-stuff I've used as walls inside the mesh.

Close-up of the pop-hole.

I haven't yet installed a door, but a handful of hay stuffed into the doorway is fine for chicks at this age. They help themselves out of a morning, and are slowly learning to scurry back inside if it's too chilly out! But we're currently experiencing a cold snap, so I'm giving them a couple of hours of light per day. Note: while this brooder might look difficult to make, it was easy to bend the mesh (Bunnings compost panels cut to size) and join them with c-clips. Get yourself a c-clip bag and set of pliers! They're the chook keeper's best friend.

What vitamins do chooks need?

Below is a rough list of what vitamins chooks require, and the most likely natural sources for anyone mixing a complete diet. Of course chickens free ranging over insect-rich ground supply many of these vitamins from wild food.

The list below also doesn't include minerals or protein, the other essentials of a balanced diet.

Vitamin A and beta-carotene: LEAFY GREENS.

Vitamin B1 - thiamine: SUNFLOWER SEEDS, WHOLE GRAINS.

Folate: LEAFY GREENS LIKE SPINACH, WHEAT GERM.

Vitamin B2 - Riboflavin: MILK, LEAFY GREENS, NUTS, YOGHURT.

Vitamin B3 - Niacin: YEAST, BEANS, SUNFLOWER SEEDS.

Vitamin B5 - pantothenic acid: LIVER, FISH, WHOLE GRAINS, PEAS.

Vitamin B6 - Pyroxidine: CHICK PEAS, OATS, BAKED POTATOES, WHOLE GRAINS.

Vitamin B12: FISH, DAIRY, BEEF (E.G. BANDSAW DUST FROM BUTCHER).

Vitamin D: SUNLIGHT, FISH OIL.

Vitamin E - tocopherol: GRAINS, WHEAT GERM, SUNFLOWER SEEDS.

Vitamin K: LEAFY GREENS, DAIRY, MEAT.

Biotin: CEREALS, LEGUMES, NUTS.

Why do we need another chicken blog or forum?

Sunday, August 14, 2011

meat hybrids and laying

3 comments:

What vitamins do chooks need?

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